Intro: This is the extent of the failure of leadership behind the door. We have no idea what he’s doing. If this is the standard of our leaders today, we’re in trouble. Help us. So what kind of leader are you aiming to be? Holy Mackrel. How’d you do that?

Good leaders remember, they are people first.

Leadership is hard.

Let me name those three things in a succinct way. Now we are taking leadership to a better place. Thank you for being with us on the Leadership Listening Podcast.

René Carayol: I’ve coached a couple of prime ministers of our UK Prime Ministers. I thought Chief Executives jobs were always on and tough. It’s a cakewalk compared to what they’ve got on their plates.

Lawrie Philpott: Welcome to this episode of Leadership Listening, and I’m delighted, really delighted to welcome a truly global leadership coach, René Carayol. Now, René and I first met something like 15 years ago, and we, I think, clicked immediately. We also had lots of fiery debates about our most important subject – leadership in today’s tough, tough world. My own starting point on that subject is that great leadership is too often missing in action. And whilst the world wants more and better leadership, what we often get is thin gruel. Against that background and given the pressures on leadership, there’s nobody finer than René to tell us what he sees out there.

So René, very big welcome to you and let’s have a brief overview of your story, early life, school, beyond.

René Carayol: First of all, Lawrie, it’s a real pleasure and a privilege to be here with you. And yeah, there’s nothing like a great argument set to with you and I’ve missed it for a while, so let’s get it back going today.

But look, I’m lucky enough to have spent a career and a part of my life living in Europe, born in Gambia, West Africa, but most of my life, living in London, Europe, and part of my life working in America. And that’s a defining moment. So I spent 10 years at Marks and Spencer, which at the time was the eighth largest business in the uk, would you believe?

Largest retailer in Europe. And I would say maybe the best foundation training for leadership in the country. Back in the day, in the halcyon days.

Lawrie Philpott: Mm-hmm.

René Carayol: I also spent three years in New York on the board of Pepsi, the ultimate challenger brand, waking up to face the might of Coca-Cola every day I learned about leadership, good old American leadership, good old British leadership, and the benefit of where I’m now is having a foot in both camps.

And I suppose the defining moment for me was having spent 10 years at Marks and Spencer. As a merchandiser, the phone rang its Pepsi, and they’re looking for a board director. I just knew it wasn’t me. They got the wrong person. They’ve got the wrong number. I’d never been in a boardroom, but you know what?

It was me. I joined the board of Pepsi. I moved to New York, purchased New York, and life changed. Everything changed.

I had imposter syndrome like you’ll never believe, and I was waiting to be found out. My very first day of work, there were seven offs on the board in those dark days. April, 1991. This was, seems like a lifetime ago. It was way before the likes of Google and my very first day of work was a board meeting and I knew I was gonna be found out.

I didn’t know what a board director did, never been in a board meeting. My six colleagues on the board. In those days, were all men. I was the only non-American and it looked like my colleagues. I didn’t sound like my colleagues, but they made me feel so welcome. They wanted it to work for me. The door swung open and in walked the chief executive, Larry. So gentlemen, I’d like to introduce you to our new board director René Carayol. He had no notes at all. This was way before Google. Let me tell you a little bit about René. René’s parents came from Gambia to London in the early 1960s.

He talked through my education, primary school, high school, no notes, no Google. Guess how he was making me feel. The nervousness was disappearing. For the first time in my life, in my career, someone was talking just about me. Someone’s talking positively just about me. Who moved on to my university, talked through my degree.

No notes, no Google. The killer piece. I did nine different roles at Marks and Spencer’s in 10 years. He talked them through in chronological order. No notes, no Google. Guess how that made me feel? I was made to feel not just welcome, not just needed. I was wanted. That moment has never left me. It probably lasted three to four minutes.

No, it lasted me a lifetime. This was before the word inclusion ever appeared, or diverse, or this was inclusion at its best. And you know, for those three to four minutes, there’s nothing I would not do for Larry. There was a TV series at the time they called Mission Impossible. My colleagues nicknamed me Mission Impossible ’cause Larry, the task that couldn’t be done.

He gave it to me and I got it sorted. Why? three to four minutes, making me feel I was special, making me feel I was wanted. That was my first introduction to real leadership. And I’ve never forgotten it. And fortunately or unfortunately, I’ve measured every leader I’ve worked with against that standard.

Lawrie Philpott: Great stuff. So you entered into the world of Pepsi and then later on migrated in the direction of becoming a coach, becoming advisory. How did that happen? René?

René Carayol: I came back to the UK and I joined the board of IPC magazines. We did a management buyout. We bought the business for what is still a record management buyout figure for Europe, 860 million.

Sold it for 1.1 billion three and a half years later, and I retired January the first, 2000. I was free forever, and then by complete chance and accident. I’d worked for a business that had put brands online in the .com era. We’d put content online and I was being booked here, there, and everywhere to come and give talks on how do we monetize, how do we monetize, how do we monetize?

On the back of that, a couple of talks I gave people asked me to come and I worked with them and their executive team before I knew I was coaching. I’m not sure I’m your standard coach. I get invited by all the coaching bodies and coaching associations and normally it’s no surprise to me and it’s not lost on me when I’m the coaching antichrist, all the things they say you shouldn’t do.

I do on a regular basis. My job is to accelerate the goals, dreams, and hopes of the chief executive. Everything they want to do, I help them to make it happen quicker. And to me, there’s no rule book. Every chief executive is different. Every challenge is different and the world has changed so much.

And it was interesting where you started out the thin gruel. I don’t see that. I have to say Lawrie, I see something far more enriching. And I suppose I would say this, wouldn’t I? I put it down to the fact that the sort of leaders who engage me want to go on a different journey. And the bit I’m seeing is, I suppose what I’m seeing today is much less of trying to fix their people and more time spent trying to fix the environment that enables their people to succeed.

Lawrie Philpott: So the people that are coming your way are sort of inspired to want to become better leaders as opposed to some of the ones that certainly I’ve seen where their boss, the chairman or whatever,  comes in our direction and says we’ve got problems with this chief executive or this C-suite member.

And we want to engage you to help with that. So you are saying that a lot of the people that you see are the more inspired versions.

René Carayol: It’s not as black and white as that. Lawrie. My engagements tend to be come and fix a problem and brought in from up high. I think my engagements, my assignments tend to come from someone who’s worked for a chief executive that I’ve coached who goes to a new ground and they’re working for a new chief executive and they think the new chief executive could do with a little bit more support, a little bit more direction, a little bit more channel, a little bit, but it comes from a more positive base.

They’ve joined the company with high expectations and they’re reporting to a chief executive who the core of what they’re seeing or receiving is about right, but maybe something’s missing.

Lawrie Philpott: Yeah.

René Carayol: In pursuit of excellence, I would call it.

Lawrie Philpott: Yeah. Why does leadership matter to you deep inside René’s heart, René’s mind, René’s soul.

Why does it matter? Does it go back to the way you felt when you faced that day in PepsiCo and the accolade that you got?

René Carayol: It’s a great, great insightful question because I’ve worked for the good, the bad, and the ugly, as I’m sure you have.

Lawrie Philpott: Yep.

René Carayol: And there’s nothing more nothing more destroys you than working for someone who just does not know how to get the best out of you.

Who doesn’t really care about getting the best out of you. It’s a hierarchy and it’s command, it’s control. Do as you are told. You have no voice, you have no space. You have little respect. I’ve worked in those environments, but then again, I’ve been liberated and fortunate enough to work in environments where I’ve had all the support and compassion you could ever need. Been given all the empowerment and I’ve fallen over and made a fist of it and I’ve messed up and I’ve still had the backing. I’ve still had someone who’s got my back, who wants me to succeed, and I know I’ve given 110% in those environments and I know what the difference it makes when all of you in the environment feel as though you’ve got air cover, you’ve got leadership air cover. You know that there’s a force out there that is willing and wanting you to succeed, and that feeling of winning with your colleagues, nothing beats it.

Lawrie Philpott: Mm-hmm.

René Carayol: And working for that leader where when things go wrong, they take all the blame.

When it goes right, they give you all the credit. There’s nothing better.

Lawrie Philpott: Yeah,

René Carayol: So I’ve wanted to replicate that again and again. And Lawrie, we’ll, we’ll talk mostly today from a business context, but the leadership I’m talking about, I see it in the hospital. I see it in the school. I see it in my, my next door neighbors, the local rabbi for our synagogue and me and him, we have this conversation on a regular basis. I see. And feel as, I feel like I’m his coach. I spend as much time coaching him for his congregation as anyone else, ’cause that’s where the difference of leadership really matters.

Lawrie Philpott: Well that’s interesting René, because later in our conversation I’d quite like to just gently go down the public sector route.

because I have a big ticket record in public sector appointments going back over many years, and I’m a public sector enthusiast. So later in the conversation, I think I’d like to go there without getting dragged into politics and policy making and so on and so forth.

René Carayol: Let’s do that. I spent three years on the board of HMRC.

Serving as a board director there, and it was a wonderful insight into how Whitehall works, what’s brilliant about it and what the opportunities are. I’ve also coached three different chief executives of the NHS.

Lawrie Philpott: Good. So let’s pick that up a little bit later. So having worked across all sorts of countries, cultures, industries, is there a leadership problem that is truly universal? Wherever you go

René Carayol: again, let me turn this around. So I think I’m lucky enough to have coached, as you say, on every continent heads of state, chief executives. I’ve been privileged enough to do a lot with all the people I’ve worked with. I’ve yet to meet a leader that’s an all rounder. I’ve yet to meet a leader that’s good at everything. They’re like every one of us. Every one of ’em is brilliant at something. No one is brilliant at everything, but on occasion we have to remind them of that. And that’s usually my job, that they’re not brilliant at everything.

And here’s the crux of what I see everywhere leaders become. Every leader usually inherits a team at some stage. There was a time when you did the best with someone else’s team. Those days are long gone. Are long gone, not everyone. And we see in sports all the time, you put a new leader of a Premier League football club in and the players have to change.

They just do. ’cause different coaches have different styles, different leaders have different approaches. The team that would work brilliantly for you Lawrie, probably is not going to be the optimal team for me. And here’s what I see. And here’s what the first exercise we try to do is work out what are the two or three spikes we call them.

Some people call them superpowers. The things that the leaders are brilliant at. Then stop wasting our time trying to remove their areas for improvement, their limitations, waste of time. Once you’re past 25, you ain’t gonna change too much. Your blind spots. Your blind spots, but your, your gifts are, your blessings are the things we should capitalize upon.

Then build a team that compensates for the things they’re not so good at. The team can be brilliant at everything, no individual can be. So let’s set a different expectation instead of thinking, well, they’re rubbish at communication. Just gets a couple of great communicators in the team. No one’s gonna be brilliant at everything.

The old world was, I expect the leaders to be able to do everything. Oh, come on, let’s get realistic. That’s not realistic. And if I look at, just look at our current set of political party leaders. Not one of them is brilliant at everything by far.

Intro: Mm-hmm.

René Carayol: We’ve got some good managers, we’ve got some great communicators, we’ve got some action oriented people, but what teams do they have around them?

Does that team, is it built? So we, there’s a thing we spend a lot of time doing is no longer the right person, the best person for the job is the best person for the team.

Lawrie Philpott: If we are looking then René, at the top 5% of leaders, what is it that they do consistently that the next lot, the next 20% don’t do?

René Carayol: Well, the bit that I like more than anything else is some one, they’re action oriented.

They don’t prevaricate. They get things done. They’re brave, they’re courageous. When there’s a problem, they go towards it immediately, and it’s that impetus that get it done, that get it sorted. Are they right every time? No, but they, they make the call and I’d be coach ’em, go towards it, make the call, go towards it, make the call.

Lawrie Philpott: Mm-hmm.

René Carayol: Then take your team on the journey. And if it goes wrong, fess up. ’cause not, but make the call and make it as early as possible and make it with all your stakeholders in mind. It’s not about you. And increasingly we’re seeing that no lead is perfect and vulnerability is one of the key strengths of today.

And when I see the leaders prepared to fess up that they’ve got it wrong, people try harder without fear when they never get it wrong, and they never fess up to get it wrong. No one ever tells them the truth.

Lawrie Philpott: There’s a sort of framework, I think René and I call it the structural. In other words, first of all, what a chief executive has to do and know how to do well.

Then there’s the sort of behavioral or psychological profile and you know, all of the sort of strengths, um, that and the weaknesses of course, that can come through that particular lens. And then there’s that old fashioned word called character, which is about integrity, courage, humility, consistency, respect, and fairness.

So, you know, by the time you put all of those balls in the air. I buy into your notion that it is extremely difficult to find an individual who is good at everything. The sort of Federer of the leadership world, and even Federer, of course, lost on occasions. I’d also agree with you very strongly that It’s a team game these days and getting your team in good working order is an absolute. It’s a no brainer. It has to happen, but what I find is that leaders are very often not well versed in what I call the working on the organization subjects. They work in the organization as bankers or lawyers or retailers or running an airline or whatever.

But the on the organization subjects are, if you like, the poor relation. What do you think?

René Carayol: That’s a great observation. That’s a great observation, Lawrie. So let’s stand back a little bit. So the first thing is, when I come to Europe, they tend not to want to be coached.

Lawrie Philpott: Hmm.

René Carayol: It’s still seen as remedial. You are coming to fix a visible problem that I have, and I don’t need that being made any more visible.

When I go to America, every Fortune 500 chief Executive will have someone like me and it’s very visible. It’s nothing is best done alone anymore. It’s a badge of courage to have the best coach you possibly can, and you are not just visible. You are active everywhere. And tragically, just as in Europe, I find the same thing with women leaders.

Their, their world is so difficult. It’s been so hard to get to where they’ve got to. They also tend to see coaches as remedial. So we, I still get to coach ’em, still get to coach in Europe, but it’s with that proviso. Mm-hmm. It’s more difficult. Yeah. It’s more set peace. It’s more behind the curtains, it’s the real relationship.

And what tends to happen in Europe is it always starts with, well, why don’t you start with my team, which is the euphemism for coaching them while being seen to be coaching the team. And the first thing that’s done then is. Get a grip on the team. Is this the team that’s gonna bring out the best in you and vice versa.

And I might practice something called collaboration is the new leadership. It’s about getting that team right.

Lawrie Philpott: Yeah. I buy into that very, very strongly. In fact, René, I know organizations out there. That as regards coaching will say, I certainly don’t want to get anywhere near coaching because my organization will view me as at the top of the slide.

That is the slide to failure. So coaching keep away from me, and that isn’t where business performance comes from these days. As far as I’m concerned,

René Carayol: it’s so we’re lucky enough to coach across a lot in Africa, a lot across Asia. Similar issues. It’s a coach is still stigmatized.

In America It’s astonishing.

It’s a world that is so open to feedback, to challenge, to support, to direction. And it tells in the results. It just tells in the results.

Lawrie Philpott: Yeah.

René Carayol: Whereas here, it’s still being careful with our language, choosing your moments, finding the right atmosphere. I don’t have to do any of that in America.

Lawrie Philpott: So if you are having, you know, some of, let’s say your most difficult, intense, uh, conversations with high performing leaders, what’s the hardest conversation you ever have to have with them?

René Carayol: Two contemporary observations on coaching. The first thing is the job has got incredibly tougher. The chief executive job, it’s the best job in the world, the loneliest job in the world, the toughest job in the world, and there aren’t that many people who wanna do it anymore, Lawrie. So we’re seeing the average tenure in America is dropping to around five and a bit years.

In Europe it’s six and a bit years. So the days of the 10 year, 15 year term in office, forget that. The job’s just way too difficult, too challenging, too stressful to do. My observation is that I’ve never known a time, there are so many things outside the control of the chief executive. They can no longer influence.

You know, there’s always been the macroeconomics, but now with just, the political situation, the global conflicts, the supply chain issues, the technology issues, the AI issues. The amount of stuff they can’t control and the bit, if we boil it all down, there was a time when, once a year, every chief executive I worked with would have that moment when they’ve gotta make the call and they know that their data’s suboptimal.

The data’s not correct, but I’ve gotta make the call now anyway, you gotta take the audience with me. It’s the China team. It’s the supply chain team, it’s the technology team, it’s my investors, it’s the board, it’s my direct reports. I’ve gotta take them with me, so I’ve gotta put my game face on. I know the data’s not correct and I’ve gotta make a call we’re marching north and I’m gonna convince everyone, and that’s quite a stressful situation, but I’d, I’d have a week to work with them to get them ready for it. Today Lawrie, Some of the people I’m working with are having that three times a day. Three times. It used to be once a year, three times a day.

They’ve gotta make that call knowing they don’t know, knowing they may have to come and fess up and its wrong tomorrow. So the other two trends I’m seeing is one and done. I’ll do the chief of editor’s job, job once. I don’t wanna do it again. Three of my chief executives are in the departure lounge at the moment. By their own volition. One of them is going to be a teaching assistant in his village next, just gonna detox, decompress for two, three years and see what, one of them’s going around the world with his son. It is that stressful?

Lawrie Philpott: Yeah. Interesting. René? The word social media didn’t come through then, and I found myself in a position, particularly during the COVID era when organizations were having to.

Right size is the politest description, I guess. So they were right sizing and the world of social media was absolutely Bastille. Uh, in just dreadfully difficult. And I have in mind an organization where I was coaching the number two in a globally known name that most people, everybody listening to this podcast would recognize, so social media, is it a world of the uncontrollable, or have you just got a kind of, you know, suck it up and put up with it as a CEO?

René Carayol: I think what what I’m seeing is, yes, I remember those times, Lawrie, loud and clear, and I share your view. During the pandemic, it had its moments. That’s been completely superseded by the world of AI. There’s always something technology driven recently that’s go, that’s going to grab the attention, grab the focus, but just like social media, it’s a relationship, not a takeover.

And what we’re coaching is, as with social media, as with the digital infrastructure ages when we have them, it’s don’t worry too much about being completely okay with everything. Ai. Just remember, be as good as your competitors who are deploying it, if not better. That’s your, that’s a real thing. But I’m working with from Microsoft to Google to ServiceNow.

They’re both chief exponents of AI and they are fantastic on their client sites. Maybe an opportunity to be a little better at home as ever cobbler children, how many times have we seen this and heard this story before?

Lawrie Philpott: Yeah.

René Carayol: But the bit I see is that it’s still a question of leadership. No matter what the latest fad, the latest technology, the latest innovation is.

It’s a question of leadership. Does the leader need to be brilliant at everything and okay with it? No, but someone in their team or their team needs to be able to have the mastery, and we should stop thinking it’s going to be the chief executive. That’s the master everything. Remember? So my definition of the chief executive today is the leader of leaders, the coach of coaches.

Good leaders create followers. Great leaders create leaders. The role of the chief executive is to create as many leaders for your business as possible. It’s not to be the expert.

Lawrie Philpott: Mm-hmm.

René Carayol: It’s to be the leader of leaders.

Lawrie Philpott: And I guess René, you’ve almost certainly, I certainly have myself, had those occasions where there is great emotion in the room, tearfulness, regret and so on, and I’m talking about leadership derailment.

What’s the most common pattern behind that when you see it up close and personal?

René Carayol: It’s, as I said, it’s the toughest job in the world.

Lawrie Philpott: Yeah.

René Carayol: It’s the best job in the world and it’s the loneliest job in the world. Now, interesting to contextualize this for some obscure reason. I also coach world champion boxes.

Right. David Hay. I’ve worked with Richie. The late great Rick Ricky Hatton was I worked very closely with and it took me some time to realize just how similar they were to the chief executive loneliest job in the world. Best job in the world, toughest job in the world. The link was, they didn’t feel they could show their vulnerability.

They felt game face on every day. Well, you are gonna, you are gonna implode. You are putting yourself under such pressure and you are also taking it home to your loved ones. Where can you actually just detox, decompress, be who you really want to be and not have that game face on world champions felt that no matter where they were, they can’t show a moment’s weakness. I was lucky enough to work with Conor Ben recently. Same thing. Can’t show any weakness. It was like the chief executive that couldn’t demonstrate their vulnerability, didn’t, couldn’t share it with their team, couldn’t share it with, once we’ve cracked that, then the whole game changes.

Lawrie Philpott: Mm-hmm.

René Carayol: When the chief executive can walk into him and say, guys, I’ve gotta tell you about everything I said yesterday. I need to correct it with a wry smile and the whole team creates a supportive environment. It goes against everything we would talk about hierarchy, about the stiff upper lip facing in, never saying never give in, never apologize it’s nonsense.

Lawrie Philpott: Interesting. Then, René, to just move in the direction of the word accountability, because accountability is something that is misunderstood. It’s confused with the word responsibility, and I think that something called single point accountability needs to be very clear around the leadership, the C-Suite team table, so that If something is being discussed by way of an agenda item, then before the item is discussed, somebody around the team table needs to be appointed, single point accountable to the team for taking that subject out of the room and ensuring it happens. And by and large, incidentally, that should, that single point accountability should by and large exclude the chief executive in the sense that the chief executive is single point accountable for the whole organization. So, the whole subject of accountability is quite often mushy in organizations. It’s confused with blame, apportionment, which has got, you know, something of a bad reputation itself.

Um, so where are you on the subject of accountability?

René Carayol: It is again, you are pulling ’em out now, aren’t you? This is another great insightful question. Look, we see two things we call it. Part of what we do is to get the leadership teams to manage a little less and lead a little more. And delegation is management.

Empowerment is leadership. If you are having to apportion ownership, accountability, I, you’ve got, you’ve built the wrong environment. You built the wrong environment. That is hard work and will drain you. That’s management. And in its classic sense, it’s Laura, I’d like you to do these two or three tasks for me. And here’s the goals, here’s the measurements of success, here’s the accountability. I’ve thought all through, I’ve written all up and here, and you will check in with me two or three times and I’ll keep, keep releasing a little more incremental mental authority for you to continue. That’s all lack of trust. That takes you nowhere as a leader lower down the organization that may have its place, but at the top it’s more, we have shared goals, we have a shared vision.

We’ve been talking about this all the time. My team is empowered. They are pleased to take the role. They’re pleased to grab the accountability. I don’t need to apportion it. I do have overall ownership of everything. Now let’s have the discussion. Every now and again, I might have to intervene just to clarify.

The team around me are taking ownership because that’s what they’re here for and that’s what they want. If you are having to apportion it, you’ve got the wrong team, you’ve got the wrong environment.

Lawrie Philpott: But that’s exactly what I was saying. If I may say so that the team has a conversation about who of us is the best person to be accountable to the team for ensuring, assuring.

That this thing happens after the C-Suite team meeting outside the room, maybe on a multidisciplinary basis, so that it happens in line with the discussion that’s been had by the team, the debate, the decisions, the timelines, the resources, the need for cooperation and so on. The single point accountable person takes it outside of the room and on behalf of the team assures that it happens.

René Carayol: We have a concept we call primary team. Where the most senior team you sit on is your primary team. The team that reports to you is your immediate team, but the reason you come into the office is to sit on the most senior team, the primary team. In that primary team. That is what you live for. That’s why you’re employed for.

That’s where all the accountability lies. Your team is the implementation team where you take away your responsibilities, your account, and they do. The way it manifests itself when it’s working, it goes something along these lines. I’ve just come back from my team meeting. We discussed that we’re not quite gonna hit budget this year.

In order for us to hit our numbers, we needed to find an extra couple of million. I volunteered those. The boss was looking at who we could give it up. Where could we make the cuts? Could we close a factory? Could we sort of close down a couple? No, I took that. ’cause I know here with this team, the best team in this business, we’re gonna find that 2 million

When it’s not working, the conversation goes something like. You know what they’re like. They took 2 million from us. I fought like hell to, you know what they’re like. They just didn’t listen. Nobody.

Lawrie Philpott: Yep.

René Carayol: One is primary team, one isn’t. What we’re coaching is that the shared accountability, the shared common purpose that people volunteer to take those hits.

We take ownership. We get things that I don’t need to be there. I’m not the conductor of an orchestra. I’m having to apportion things that every now and again, I’ve got all the wheels and lubricated. We’re so cohesive, we know what we’re trying to achieve, and I spend a lot of my time visibly ensuring people know what parts they’re playing.

I empower them, I encourage them. I don’t need to beat them up and hold them to account.

Lawrie Philpott: Yep.

René Carayol: That’s the old one.

Lawrie Philpott: And if I was to say René, that around a C-Suite leadership team, table Chief executive, and seven others. So eight people in total. Each of you, including the chief executive, is one eighth accountable for the success of this organization.

What would you say to that?

René Carayol: Different portions at different moments. We’re in this thing together. I’m not sure I’d put it, I’d cut. I’d ever cut the cake. We’re all responsible for baking the cake and sometimes our roles will change and sometimes someone will stand him when I’m not at my best and someone will have, have will notice when I’m not really contributing and care enough to support me.

I think it’s less the platoon. It’s really fluid, very, very fluid, and my function doesn’t define my responsibility. I. My job title is not that important. I’m part of the leadership team. I may be Chief Audit Officer. I might be Chief Risk Officer. I might be Chief Commercial Officer.

But you know what? We’re in this thing together and it just happens. I’m the best communicator, so I pick that up. It just happens. I’m the best at joining the dots, so I pick that. It just happens that I’m the most numerate, even more so than the CFO, and I pick up those bits to be, but together as a team, we get it done.

Yeah, so I think it’s more of an informal.

Your 20% response? No, we’re in this thing together. I got your back.

Lawrie Philpott: I agree with you wholeheartedly. I think I take it one step further you can’t really have it as informal. I think you’ve got to be a bit more specific, certainly conversationally specific about the kind of things that we’re talking about today in this podcast, so that there is dialogue among the team members and they, they kind of get it.

René Carayol: I half agree with you, but I’m pushing back. I’m pushing back strongly and saying, Hmm, that’s a bit of a traditional model. I don’t think that works in the fast moving world of today. It just doesn’t work. Lawrie, and this is why I say that, what, in my experience, what I’ve seen is that those where it’s all about structure, structure’s never delivered anything in its life.

Let’s stand back from that. That’s the old day. The hierarchy, the structure. You do this, you do that. I don’t, no. Forget that. Forget that the world is too fast moving. For that. We live in a VUCA world where it’s volatile, complex, ambiguous, unexpected, undefined, and those strict hierarchies and strict lines just militate against that.

I’m talking about a different sort of world with a different sort of leadership where every day. Could be markedly different from the day before. It’s not the same thing. The old days of the cleverest man in the room sitting on the top of hierarchy, Jack Welsh General Electric. Those days when they made every call they called, nothing happened, but the world was slow enough then that you could work that way.

You can’t do that today. It’s far too fast moving and fast changing and dynamic. So therefore, the sort of leaders we’re looking for, not the managers who with a hierarchy and a structure. I don’t know any business today that I’m working with that still works that way. You just can’t

Lawrie Philpott: with you entirely.

With you entirely, René. But the point I’m making is that they need to have conversations possibly, facilitated by a coach that gets them to understand exactly what you are saying, agree with you wholeheartedly in that sense.

René Carayol: I shouldn’t say this, but because we’re amongst friends, I will, I don’t attend meetings anymore. I run them. That’s my job. When I come into executive suite or to the, if I’m gonna be there, I’m not sitting there taking notes. Those days, the coach sat there taking notes and I was gonna say anything. I’m sitting there taking notes. I’ve normally got 15 minutes max, where I’ve got their full attention.

I’m gonna make a difference in 15 minutes and then sit back and observe, leave them. And in that time, the remedial, sit on the couch. Tell me all about it. Let me take loads of notes. Let me go and think about it. I, that might be coaching some, I don’t know that

Lawrie Philpott: I don’t do that either.

René Carayol: I come in and there is profuse blood dripping outta the large thorn that’s in the paw of the chief executive and sometimes they’re with their team and I’ve gotta get that thorn out immediately. And usually it’s collective healing.

Lawrie Philpott: Yeah.

René Carayol: Whatever the issue is, the issue’s affecting the team and facilitate a conversation. So it gets resolved really quickly paring, egos, ensuring, and we have two or three rules that I try and get them to understand. The first one is call it out with care with forgiveness. Coach, don’t confront. Don’t exclude, but call it out. Think about your language. Think about the tone. Think about the place. Think about, but we’re gonna have it out, but we’re not gonna kill anyone.

We want to retain them in the team, but what they’ve done is inappropriate or unacceptable. We’re gonna call it out. Be more compassionate than you think you need to be every day. Every day be more compassionate than you think you need to be, because it’s a tough old world there. There’s no one in that organization who isn’t trying to do the right thing.

So let’s not just clatter in, let’s coach, let’s really, really coach, and every day bring your understanding in. You are the coach. You’re not the expert. You’re not the other coach. So the most important thing is you are the living example. You and your leadership team. You are the living examples.

You are the role models. It’s not what you say, it’s what you do. How do you turn up? What language do you use? How do you treat someone who’s not having the best day? What do you do if someone’s let the team down? You do it in a way that everyone can learn from and forgiveness is there, but standards are kept in place as well.

Lawrie Philpott: And if we. Come back to the CEO then the pivotal CEO There’s a proposition that I often find, and that is that leaders do too much. And if you look at 46 weeks of the year, 11 hours a day, say  five days a week, although five days a week is sometimes a rarity with organizations these days, that gives you something like 2,500 hours a year.

And what I find is that the Chief executive very often has a role that’s populated with all sorts of stuff that just shouldn’t be there. There isn’t time to think, there isn’t time to keep up to date. With the iteration of the world of business and organizations and performance and all the rest of it, what are you finding about organizations that are led by CEOs who just do too much?

René Carayol: Again, another nail you are hitting on the head directly. Look, burnout is everywhere and many of us say, oh these youngsters, these went, no, I grew up in a world, you grew up in a world where we came in first thing and worked. Like did exactly as we were told, did more than we were told to do all the time.

Today what I’m seeing is to try and prevent that. It’s get a team. Together where the last thing they’re gonna allow is you to interfere in their area to do their work. They push you away, leaving you in the rarefied atmosphere that leaves you leading, not managing, and that that leadership of your team and the business at large should be the most enjoyable thing you do.

That’s visible, that’s engaging, touching. Purpose reminding everyone the reason that we’re there, you’re not measuring, you’re not checking, you’re not, that’s not your job anymore. Your job is to drive everyone towards the vision, energizing the whole business, the whole enterprise towards your vision.

That’s your role. Define the chief of Israel, energizing the whole business towards your vision. There are lots of people underneath you who are picking up the numbers. The results, the rates of return, who are checking, modifying. Yours is the belief system, is the energy, is the drive, is ensuring the whole business is set up to do more than they thought they could ever do.

Lawrie Philpott: Yeah,

René Carayol: and it’s not the day-to-day detail get out of that. If you are having to do that, you’ve got the wrong team. Yeah. The right team will not allow you to come and do their jobs. They’ll prefer to resign, find someone else.

Lawrie Philpott: Hmm.

René Carayol: Remember we’re talking leadership, not management,

Lawrie Philpott: the interface. Then, René, the interface between the world of work and getting a life, being the right person, at home, dealing with a 16-year-old son or daughter.

And the notion that nobody calls me, sir at home. What do you see with leaders who are not particularly able to sort of switch between those two modes and have two great scenes?

René Carayol: Late last year, I got a phone call at three o’clock on a Sunday morning. Sadly, disgracefully, I picked it up and there’s a strong Italian accent.

René, René, René. I’ve tried everything with him. It still isn’t working. I’m not sure what I should do next. So, you know, three o’clock on a Sunday morning. He spoke for 20 minutes. I said next to nothing. I was just creating an environment where I felt safe enough to speak. After 20 minutes, said, thank you, René.

That was great. I’d hardly said anything. Affirmation is what I was giving. Put the phone down. Six o’clock Sunday evening. My phone rings. It’s his wife. She says, René, I’m calling to apologize. He’s just confessed to me that he called you at three o’clock this morning. I reminded him. He hasn’t spoken to you for six years.

I haven’t seen him for six years. They’re not assignments anymore. They’re relationships. Yeah. And when I saw him last, I’d got him to switch off at weekends and his wife’s an Olympic. Show Jumper who’s now retired, but runs her own riding school and he’d go down there at weekends and just relax and enjoy himself.

He used to ride many years ago, but now, she said he hasn’t been down for a couple of months and blah, blah. So it was my time to reengage and go back and have that conversation about work life balance. He’s a great guy, but after six years there was only one person he chose to talk to.

Lawrie Philpott: Just coming, as I said earlier in our conversation, René, in the direction of the public sector, an awful lot is going on in the public sector world now, at the geopolitical level at the national level, at the baseline public service level, and I’m a public sector, public service enthusiast. but our politicians and the relationship that they have amongst themselves, the relationship that they have with civil servants and local government of officials just seems to have. About the lowest rating that is possible to have at the moment.

I hope to God it just doesn’t go any farther down.

René Carayol: Harsh, my friend. Harsh.

Lawrie Philpott: I’m gonna be harsh. Your view, René, of the leadership quotient that we’re encountering, observing, at the public sector level these days.

René Carayol: So again, because we’re amongst friends, I’ve coached a couple of prime ministers of our UK Prime Ministers, one for over a year and one for nine months, two different parties.

It gave an insight into, I thought Chief executives jobs were always on and tough. it’s a cakewalk compared to what they’re, they’ve got on their plates. But two observations I would make that feed into your analysis. The first one is, when we work in colleges and universities, the best of the best of our young talent no longer want to be politicians.

That’s the biggest problem of the lot. There was a time when the best of the best wanted to serve the country. They wanted to get into the big public sector roles and get into, that’s no longer the case, unfortunately. How do we make them excited about public service again? So that, that’s the big thing.

The second thing that I notice is that in the world, in the commercial world, it’s changing fast and therefore leaders have to change with it. And the absolute clarity on measures of success, profitability, the financial returns forces change. We don’t have exactly the same. It’s still slow and incremental in politics, it’s not as dynamic, and that world is changing as fast as the business world, but the leaders aren’t changing as fast and the leaders aren’t as agile.

They’re not as adapting. they’re policies that take, you know, 450 recommendations. That boils down to two in the executive suite. You can’t, 450 recommendation means nothing’s gonna happen. You know that You’re not even gonna try, you won’t even allow that.

Intro: Mm-hmm.

René Carayol: No junior manager could come up to the executive suite and say, can I go through the 450 recommendations?

You’d be laughed out of court and we’re gonna take six months to make a decision about closing this prison. That’s about 15 minutes in the executive meeting. And, we just don’t have that level of focus. That laser focus on performance, which chief executives are sacked for on a regular basis now, caliber of people, there is still a high caliber.

It’s the environment that needs fixing. The environment doesn’t enable any leader to make big, tough, quick calls.

Lawrie Philpott: René, as we move towards the close of our conversation and when I’m asked about the future. I refuse to go any farther out than three years. And even that’s a long way with artificial intelligence,quantum computing, geopolitical forces and all the rest of it that affect businesses throughout the world.

But what do you think’s gonna be important from the point of view of leaders as we look at those next one, two or three years? Three years most, I think.

René Carayol: What I’m seeing, what I’m coaching and where I’m seeing the biggest return on investment is leaders will have to create environments where people from all different backgrounds, of all different skill sets, of all different learnings, different faiths, different languages can come together and build, create, establish.

Solutions Pathways we’ve never thought of before that we can’t do our own. No nation, no group, no academic set has a monopoly on the way forward. Collaboration is the new leadership, and they’re gonna have to create an environment that everyone feels they can. Participating without feeling judged or being forced to fit in.

That’s where the magic is. We saw it first during the pandemic, which forced us that our workforces, our people, our resources, our partners, could be in any time zone in any part of the world, and we made it work eventually. What we’re learning now is our best resources. Well, the brains may be from the Indian subcontinent.

The financial muscle may be coming in from the states. The low cost resources may be coming from the far East. Our workforce may be coming from Africa. Each one of those can still work in harmony together with a different environment that the leader creates. And when I see that in place, and some might call it belonging.

It’s the biggest driver of business performance we’ve ever seen where people feel trusted, people feel respected, they go the extra mile on a regular basis. They come together as teams in a way that does the things that other people says couldn’t be done. They do them a pace. They do them quickly. When I feel that my colleagues have my back, even though they don’t look like me, sound like me or worship like me, I feel very special and privileged.

Indeed. I go the extra mile. I’m not talking DEI, right? Let’s be clear. I’m talking leadership. This is what leaders need to do. And when they create that, forget whether it’s AI, forget whether it’s digital, forget whether it’s, whatever it is, quantum computing. That’s not the, that’s not what’s gonna drive success.

It’s the leaders that create the environment that get the best out of those that drive success.

Lawrie Philpott: Mm-hmm. And not getting overwhelmed by all of those external forces is a leadership act I would reckon.

René Carayol: I reckon that’s what you and I do, Lawrie. That’s our job.

Lawrie Philpott: Absolutely. Moving, um, towards the final part of our conversation, René, your pet hate, and secondly your secret passion, what are those two things for you?

René Carayol: They’re actually linked. Would you believe? So? My pet hate is exclusion. You can’t cover the background. I’ve come from without having experienced what it’s like to not be invited, to sometimes feel that the doors are closed and you’ve never met me. You don’t know who I am. You’ve never given me a chance.

I’m just not. And we’ve learned a lot that no one ever fully appreciates the power of inclusion until they’ve been excluded. Many of us have different faiths of different backgrounds who love in different ways. When we’ve been excluded, we realize how cruel society can really be. I, no one should ever be excluded, ever, ever, everybody in nobody out, which leads straight to my passion.

I’m a Londoner. I live in the best city on the planet. This is a place where you can be who you want to be. I wake up every day, blessed that I live in a city where it’s the most inviting. It’s the most welcoming. It doesn’t matter who your background is. We look at the FTSE 100, the top 100 companies on the London Stock Exchange.

80% of them are led by chief executives who aren’t British. Proud to be a meritocracy. Proud to be that no matter who you are, if you can contribute. If you can make a difference and you can participate, you can share you are welcome. So proud to be a Londoner.

Lawrie Philpott: Great stuff. René. A fabulous conversation. You’ve lived up to your reputation.

You haven’t lost the sparkle that I saw first of all, 15 years ago, and occasionally, as our paths have crossed in the intervening years, but the subject of leadership is safe in your hands, and that showed through fabulously this morning. Many thanks on behalf of Leadership Listening, and for people who have comments to make.

Our email is podcast@leadershiplistening.com. So René, many, many thanks.

René Carayol: Look it didn’t feel like work, my friend. This is, you are a very, very capable interviewer, dragging things out to me that I would only share with close friends like you and our listeners. And look, thought for the day. Look out for each other, look after each other.

It’s been a real privilege to spend some time with you, Lawrie. Hope to catch up again soon.

Lawrie Philpott: Cheers, René. Thank you.