Lawrie: Welcome to today’s episode of Leadership Listening, which is somewhat different because inclusive of me.

There are four people on this episode, and it’s all about the younger generation. So the people who are on the episode today are, in my view, tomorrow’s leaders and this episode. Is one where we want their views of leadership today, where it’s good, where it’s bad. Where it’s perhaps downright ugly.

We also wanna know what they want from leadership in the future. And so the three people that I’ve got with me are, first of all, Calypso, a wonderful name Kulasegram, who’s the COO of a satellite refueling company. I have to say that when I first heard that Calypso I didn’t even know that you could refuel satellites and that somebody like you is the organizing force behind it.

So do you want to give us a quick minute of you and who you are and how you got to that place?

Calypso: Yeah. So I run all of the operational functions within my company, and that includes finance contracts. People ops, anything that makes a company run on a day-to-day basis, you name it, falls under me and yeah,  satellites weren’t refueled and that’s part of the issue. So we started up as a company so that we could kind of reduce the single use satellite paradigm that’s currently happening, reduce the issue around space debris and,  just make, well, it kind of launches into that next stage of being able to do in orbit servicing, manufacturing, basically just like I would call it the gateway into the next generation of space tech.

How did I, how did I get here I am, I don’t have a classical background getting into an operational function.  especially at my age. I’ve worked in. All different trades, across different industries. I’ve worked in education for universities. I used to work with manufacturing. I’ve worked with network cabling, all different sides of like operational,  aspects within a company.

And I think getting that really generous background kind of pushed me into where I am now essentially, because I could take all of those different learnings and bring it into making a company grow from eight people, which is where I came in at to currently 21. And hopefully continue growing.

Lawrie: Great stuff.

That’s marvelous. And by the way, I think viewers and listeners would like to know what you refuel them with.

Calypso: That’s a good question. So it depends entirely on the type of propellant that satellites use to maneuver around, the US side of our company refuels with kind of liquid chemical variants like Racine, and we are working more on high pressure variants of propellants and things like,  noble gases, like argon and xenon.

Lawrie: Terrific. So second,  introduction is Eugene Rotham, who has the very great honor of having a first class honors in astrophysics. So a space scientist, and who’s in your first job? I think Eugene in a company that too, is involved in the world of satellites.

Eugene: Yeah. So my first, internship I suppose was at a small, satellite communications startup,  that make machine learning models to predict communication outages so that would be for remote locations like oil rigs. They could kind of give those companies some notice before analysis would happen due to bad weather but currently I’m, I’m working at a focused space and defense consultancy,  called Bryce Space Global.  We work with space companies, space agencies and government departments and also non-space companies,  navigate, strategically, navigate the space industry with various market intelligence and other types of support.

Lawrie: Terrific.  and that takes us last, but very much by no means least to Lucas Pepper, who’s Exus to Exeter University,  doing politics, philosophy, and economics. The classics as I see them,   Lucas. So, tell us a little bit about you and your background.

Lucas: Hi, my name’s Lucas and I’m from London.  I’ve been paying attention to politics and current affairs from quite young. Going from listening on the to the radio. On,  long drives in the car to finally getting one in my room as a birthday present.  I was a bit of a BBC Radio four Geek and still am and it has definitely influenced me in my decision to study politics, philosophy, and economics at the University of Exeter.

When home from uni, I campaigned for the Liberal Democrats, and I’ve been doing that since I was 16. I started at the 2021 local elections where we’d sit outside of a polling station and register people on what they’d voted for, something called telling. And since then I’ve done a lot of canvassing, which is door knocking and I’ve had the opportunity to shadow MPs, their staff and policy writers in Parliament. I finish university next year and when I’m thinking about what I want to do in my future, politics is something that does really stand out to me

Lawrie: Well, there we are a rich tapestry of the next generation to talk about leadership in today’s world.

And I’m gonna start by referring to a report that I saw recently from an organization called intelligent.com.  they surveyed nearly a thousand business leaders in 2024. And here’s some of the headline findings and that’ll then play us in, I think, to what you guys think of what those findings actually were.

So they said six in 10 companies fired a college graduate hire, that means generation Z. Z. 65% of hiring managers called recent grads entitled ,60 plus percent think they get offended too easily and over half said they lack the work ethic. They don’t respond well to feedback and are unprepared to work. So,  it’s our opportunity now to fight back against that fuseilard.

So first of all, six in 10 companies fired a recent college graduate hire. Anything to say about your own experience of you or friends who might have observed that kind of thing going on? People not lasting the course, I guess in terms of,  their first or perhaps second employment.

Lucas:  A lot of my friends have only really done internships.

As of right now, but I think they have been offered the return role after their third year at university. So, I think in my experience at least, and it’s probably a lower sample size since I haven’t entered the world of work, they appear to be doing quite well and maybe not as entitled or as lazy as these reports suggest.

Lawrie: Calypso, So what do you think?

Calypso: I do work a lot at the hiring side of the company and every year we bring in interns. And that’s part of like a UK space Agency Catapult project and pretty much every time that I’ve worked with them, we’ve, if we’ve been able to say they’ve graduated at the end of their internship, offered them the role to continue on with us, we also have hired four graduates this year as well, and all are exceptional and I think it’s incredibly important, especially within the sector that we belong. We’re part of, so much of it is new technology and new space and new ideas that it’s really important to be helping individuals develop and really nourishing these graduates so that they can grow into the future generation, like they are bringing the new ideas.

So I’ve definitely, in my experience, not had any entitlement. Obviously, I’m also a, a young leader, so,  I suppose I’m definitely looking at this as a millennial looking into Gen Zs and the generation that’s coming into it. But there, there is no entitlement. All I’ve really experienced is people.

That are really willing to learn and pick everything up, and they’re just excited to be a part of doing something very cool. And I do appreciate that this is coming from a very niche area of the world and I personally love what I do. And,  it’s very, it’s all very niche. But yeah, I think it’s important and that there’s, it’s this study, I’d be curious to know where, what, who they were taking their research from, like what, where their sources were.

Lawrie: And,  Eugene, there’s a story around I suppose, getting work in the first place when you’ve got your degree and then actually entering the world of work. Anything to say or think about that?

Eugene: Yeah, I think to echo Calypso’s point in the space industry, a lot of people are there ’cause they want to be there.

It’s one of those sectors that are highly attractive, purely ’cause it’s pretty kind of, frontier in terms of kind of technology development.  so for us, I mean in, in general in, in my circles,  I haven’t heard anyone get fired, especially as a graduate,  I can imagine that might be different for other sectors, like the finance sector, maybe that’s a bit more ruthless.

However. Yeah. And that, I think what, what you were alluding to was, it’s incredibly difficult to get a job as a graduate nowadays. I think there was a Financial Times article a few days ago saying how, how the numbers are down 30% this year.. A lot of people saying that’s due to AI and GBTs taking a lot of venture level jobs.

Lucas: May I just add that a part of me does understand why business leaders and more than half of hiring managers, as you said, do hold the opinion that the younger employees do have a flimsy work ethic. So I think there must be some weight to it.  Those who have experienced online schooling during COVID have definitely formed some, I’d say work shy habits from it, but as you most likely would if you were 16 and faced with the freedom of not really having to attend school ’cause it was online and attendance was unregulated. On top of that with this introduction of AI,  which is something my university is really finding quite challenging to regulate, repetitive tasks and more mundane tasks that my parents or people of similar generation would’ve had no problem with or issue just cracking on, empowering through. I think my generation does sort of not falter, but,we use sort of different tools for that.

Um. And I think, yeah, on the tools, ultimately, gen Z has grown up with this technology, AI that does let us do things faster and streamline things. So whilst they do understand managers, may be viewing this as a bit lazy or lacking in work ethic, or cutting corners, I think working with these tools such as AI, as opposed to sort of grinding through these mundane tasks may actually be a key to boosting productivity in the long place in the work, in the long term,

Eugene: in that Financial Times article they kind of mentioned a law firm that was really embracing AI in their kind of work. And I think Calypso, you might have seen the video as well. You know, they’re saying how they’re still investing in, in graduates because it’s not necessarily a replacement, it’s a tool.

So you need to kind of invest in, in your graduates with mentorship and, and giving them the opportunity. And I would say that a lot of people that I know my age work ridiculous hours, and I would say more than maybe our generation B 20, 30 years ago, and this word

Lawrie: Calypso. Snowflake seems to have sort of entered the world of words in the last few years. How does that resonate with you?

Calypso: That’s a good question. When we’re talking about ‘m not gonna lie, I haven’t really had it brought up around me or within the industry and the sectors that I’m working in. So I’m assuming we’re talking about a reference to graduates or younger individuals as being kind of like snowflakes in probably more of a derogatory term of sorts.  Kind of airy fairy light and not used to doing the hard work is what I guess they’re trying to say. Um. Interesting. It feels as my team is, our average age is 28 across it.  so we’re a very young team and as Eugene had said, like most of us work long hours.

We’re not forced to work long hours, but we want to, we really push hard to get to the next stage because. It’s the only way that we know that we’ll succeed as a company.  This may not be the case if you’re working as in a big corporate environment, you know, that’s, that you have enough resource,  or you have enough people to be able to push things aside.

I feel like it’s, it’s an unfortunate term. Or maybe you could reword it or rework it into snow is incredibly beautiful and brings light onto a lot of things and like peace and quietness. So maybe we’ll just take it in that term as being like, it’s great.

Lawrie: And for those of you who went to university, is there something that’s happening in university?

That leads to this, let’s call it misapprehension, on the part ofthe older generation as to,  as to what they see or what they think they see when young people come into the workplace for the first time.

Lucas: I’m not sure if it’s a process. That is down to the university or I think it’s actually reflective of wider society as a whole.

I think young people now might just have not a stronger moral compass per se. ’cause I think a moral compass is quite subjective. Everyone has different morals, but young people would certainly,  sort of stand by their political stances a lot more nowadays, I think. There’s a, I’ve got a study here, a Deloitte study which says 44% of Gen Z  are willing to reject employers that are misaligned with their ethics.

So I think, not that older generations were some sort of like I ideologically softer or had weaker stances or less willing to stand up for what they wanted to for what they believed in.  I think just young people, for whatever reason, I wouldn’t point it down to,  universities are just, yeah, more ethically focused and more morally focused. I mean, look for example at Palestine and the whole issue there. And I think and regarding boycotts as well, a lot of people would boycott or they wouldn’t want to work for a company which they see their, their sort of ethics and morals being,  compromised for.

Lawrie: Eugene.

Any views on,  that particular dimension?

Eugene: Yeah, two things I think. Using Snowflake to define Gen Z  is a bit rich in the sense that I think snowflakes exists among every generation, among every age group.  I think it’s easy to just pin that on the younger generation.  Secondly, yeah, I think it’s interesting,  that a lot of kids coming outta university are going into tech companies, into data center companies, and that is

potentially a, you know,  influencing the way these companies operate, like, for example, data centers.  A huge development right now in the US.  many massive,  data centers planned,  to be built and there’s a huge energy requirement, and you’re seeing that actually some of these companies now prefer to build a power plant that is using renewable energy sources.

Build extra to serve the local communities, which may be 40 years ago people weren’t thinking that way, especially when it came to say, energy and building power stations.

Lawrie: So, am I hearing that entitled? Isn’t altogether  a fair accusation that people make out there? What do you think?

Calypso: I would say, maybe it comes from a misunderstanding of, I completely back everything that the other two have said on this, and it comes from a misunderstanding of what exactly it is that we’re pushing forwards and leading towards, I think to kind of piggyback on the idea that we’re kind of much more ethically or morally bound with what we’re doing in life. I think a lot of people forget that our generations have been brought up with being connected to absolutely everything and all the information that’s just continuously around us. We’re so much more aware of what’s going on in the world and so aware of how it happened, like how did we get to a point where we’ve been talking about climate change for 40, 50 years, and we’re now at a pivotal point where it’s genuinely almost unfixable, right? So this is all stuff that we’re just trying to plot along and continuously just do our life and we’re told to, essentially just like. If we try hard, we’ll succeed.

If we push forwards, things will come easy to us. If we get degrees and we get a job, we’ll be able to buy a house. We’ll be able to do those things, and in reality, it’s just not the case. So we’re working incredibly hard trying to meet these standards that were met for elder generations, but also really aware that like that’s not gonna happen and we’re cleaning up the messes of the generation before us.

So, of course. I don’t think it’s entitlement. It is just, we’re just much more aware and connected to everything going on, and we’re just trying to do our best to make the world better.

Lawrie: And, and what about this point that they make about feedback?  I’ve got a cient who says, I don’t want constructive criticism. What I want is praise.  And I guess that’s true of most people, but,  the review said that they don’t respond well to feedback. And yet feedback I think is one of the most important things that any of us can get provided we are prepared to listen and learn

Eugene: from it. What do you think? I think between, I mean for, for this generation, I mean to, I think we have a communication issue as well.

I feel like a lot of, like when, when I was growing up there, those stories of people being afraid to pick up the phone, kids not knowing how to write emails or letters.  So I can understand why older generations might think that we’re not able to take feedback or criticism. So I, I think with social media, with GPT, there’s certainly a communication issue.

For the younger generation, I suppose, communicating to the old generation, to the standard that they grew up with

Lucas: feedback. So, they say, yeah, younger people aren’t receptive to feedback. I’m just, I can, again, I can sort of see where it’s coming from, however. I’m not really sure. I think based off of what I know and the people that I know, maybe it’s due to the fact that I go to a university and a lot of my friends are course mates doing politics who are probably going to be a bit more outspoken.

But I can see my friends taking any criticism or feedback quite well.  But I think, yeah,I agree with Eugene’s point that sort of due to, yeah, social media chat, GPT as a whole, our generation. might be slightly less,  socially sort of competent or may have slightly more, I don’t wanna use the term, but fragile egos or maybe a bit more snowflakey.

think at the end of the day, from what I’ve seen I don’t really resonate with that statistic at all and,  yeah, I pretty much rebuke it. 

Lawrie: Calypso, So I can see a rye grin on your face at that one.

Calypso: I, think it is. No, I completely agree. I think it is a communication issue and very similar to what we’ve just touched on like social media and the way that communication is changing. I mean, language changes. If you look back into the way literature happens, like,  dictionary starts to include new slang, right? That’s, that’s all changed. And be able to move with that transformation there then becomes a gap in communication between generations.

So what may come across as something that might have been constructive, said, criticism could just be pure criticism or the tone in which we speak, could come across in that sense. So I don’t think it’s, it’s taking feedback poorly. I think it’s, I think there’s a need for. Meeting each other when it comes to communication.

So any conversation is two ways, and you need to have consent on both sides to be able to have that conversation. Also, I guess like there’s a lot more awareness if we’re gonna bring this into neurodivergence and people might say that there’s a statistic that there’s more neurodivergent individuals within our generation now.

But really that is just a statistic showing that more people are able to get diagnosed and we’re just making things more accessible. So tthat’s, again, pivoting the way that we change our communication, being able to address different communication styles, being able to address different mindsets.

I agree. I don’t think it’s necessarily the way something’s received. I think it’s just elapsed in communication in general.

Lawrie: So we are saying that there’s Neurodivergence out there, and possibly it’s always been out there, but we are more easily able to spot it and think about it now.

And I wonder whether the older generation, the higher up bosses, 40, 50 plus years old, actually think properly about neurodivergence. What do we reckon? And is, is that something that comes with the younger generation? More prolifically now because of the environment that we’re in?

Calypso: No. It’s always existed.

It’s always been around, but there has always been a huge stigma around Neurodivergence or say autism, and it’s only just started becoming much more accepted and acknowledged for what it is.  So it feels more prevalent because people have access to the resources they need and the diagnosis. I say this, but really it can, like our waiting list in the UK is a year, two years, just to get an ADHD to diagnosis. So I, you know, it’s more accessible. But also there, because there has been a stigma from older generations and not being able to feel like you could truly be yourself. There’s all of that masking. So it exists. There’s a lot more that they need to break down in terms of their own internal barriers to be able to accept or potentially even agree or say that they want to get a diagnosis if they fit within those categories and they’ve just had to go through a huge amount of their life without being able to be in an environment curated for them.

Lawrie: And when we think about Neurodivergence. Kind of, ’cause that’s kind of one word. What kind of things are we talking about that should be more easily recognized by? The leaders of my generation

Lucas: generally when referring to Neurodivergence I think it’s some group, some name, not names of sort of groups that are neurodivergent are maybe people with a ADHD or people who,  have autism, and on the last point, I do think older generations are sort of warming up to it or sort of, becoming more aware about these neurodivergent traits just because, I mean. I think a lot of,  people are having children who are neurodivergent and or a family member. So I think there’s a lot more understanding coming from there as opposed to, I think in the past there wasn’t really these traits or there wasn’t really, a developed psychiatric world which sort of focused on these disabilities. And I think regarding what traits in the workplace that might arise out of having one of these diagnoses. I think maybe in the case of ADHD a lack of focus,  somewhat easily distracted. I feel like these are somewhat stereotypes, but in many cases they are quite true.

So I think. If there was somehow a workplace or a change up in the work setting, which would actually play into these strengths, because I think more and more people are being diagnosed with each generation. if there was a workplace that was same with AI, play into these strengths as opposed to neglecting them or sort of pushing them out, then I think in the long term, yeah, productivity would be much better and there’s a lot of Intelligence that can be tapped into here that I think we aren’t currently,  really making the most of.

Lawrie: Mm-hmm. And Eugene, do you see examples of neurodivergence, not necessarily in your own organization, but out there in the world of work that you encounter?

Eugene: Yes, absolutely. I’m not too sure what to well say, but yeah, of course.

it’s out there. I dunno what to comment about that, but yeah, it is out there. I think the, the worst thing in the world would be for employers to, to shut that out,  deliberately or maybe, without meaning to, I think, yeah, employees should be more open to it. There’s a massive social value piece you know, to to say you’re a company that, you know, hires disadvantaged kids,  neurodivergent kids in different from different backgrounds in, in different places, I think that’s, that’s a huge bonus and it can add a lot of diversity in perspective.

Lawrie: Mm-hmm. Interesting. And I now want to move on to.

The kind of things that you want from leaders. And also the other side of the coin, what you don’t want.  And in conversations that we had before we met today, there was, a raising of points around narcissism, leadership, and power for power’s sake. Quite a lot said about trust, greenwashing values, corporate jargon.

What, what do we, what do we actually, first of all, what do we want from leaders? From your perspective as people in the younger generation?

Lucas: I personally think being a good listener is probably what I’d say is most important and a great trait, which is not only valuable for leadership, but also just wider life but with, with regards to leadership, I think an autocratic leader who rarely accepts vice advice or input from their members of their company, will only serve to drive quite a large wedge between the top sort of areas of control and the rest of the company, which tends to be the people who are the actual output.

So yeah, listening to people around them, and I think if you are not listening to people around you and only thinking of what you want to say, then, I think that could be terrible for morale and also just trust because you, as someone who’s working the country in a company, and I feel this is especially,  key for younger people, you want to know, you want to be able to trust and felt like you are, people care about what you say.

Lawrie: Calypso, the kind of things that. We want from leaders, from your generation’s point of view?

Calypso: I completely agree. I think trust is one of the biggest things that I would need in a leader and to be able to get trust from a leader or,  I guess as a leader, it’s by being transparent, communicating well,  respect, so respecting.

So for me as a leader, I respect all the opinions of all of the employees, whether they’re an intern or you know, my managing director or someone else, like they, everybody that’s working with me, their opinion is valued and that’s important.

Lawrie: I often think that trust has two dimensions. I trust you professionally, technically, administratively, whatever, to do your job and to do what you say you’re going to do. And secondly, then I trust you interpersonally. I know a little bit about you, your strengths, your weaknesses, your hopes, your fears, you outside the world of work. And both of those dimensions of trust have gotta be in place in order for trust to exist. So,  what, what do we reckon?

Do we have leaders who understand that kind of notion and deploy it properly, or they just know the word and not much about it?

Lucas:  I think politically looking at Keir Starmer’s Labor Party, there is such a large divide between him and I think a lot of his cabinet ministers,  and the rest of his party for that matter. So I think right now looking at what is probably the largest example of an authority or a hierarchy of, you know, trust in the country. I think we are right now being failed a little bit by it  and that is really evident with the recent, you know, your party with Sarah Saltan and Corbin going off and doing their own thing and all the reshuffles and firings,  and chain.

Yeah. Abandoning, not abandoning, but leaving of the party. So I think right now, yeah, not really working.

Lawrie: So it’s, not a particularly a political point. It’s making your. Political organization work properly from a leadership perspective without getting into the politics of,  political parties, which are, you know, a subject in their own right.

What we are interested in in leadership listening is how do organizations work properly through the lens of leadership?  It’s a complex subject and, and trust is not necessarily there in the dimensions that it should be these days. Eugene, any thoughts?

Eugene: Yeah, I think trust is incredibly important.

I think any leader is gonna make mistakes, and I mean, it’s particularly important if you are the Prime Minister, but to clearly articulate and have humility about any mistakes that were made to clearly articulate the trade-offs to any choice, difficult choice you have to make, and explaining the kind of nuances, is incredibly important for people to trust what you’re saying, and I think the world is incredibly complex and. To really simplify things and, and to say, we’re gonna go this way without really explaining the trade offs or the reasons behind it and not addressing any of the pushback.  Then I think you are failing,  the people that voted you in.

Lawrie: And, and what about values?  I have to say over the years I’ve had clients who say to me. Just get those off the word processor, don’t you? And I’m a person who believes that a values driven organization is probably much more powerful as a function of organizational success than almost anything. And, what do we think therefore about the world of values in organizations?

Calypso: I think if they. Reflect true to the organization, the individuals within it, it holds a lot of purpose. And I think, I agree. I think a value driven organization can be incredibly successful. You just need to make sure that your employees and everybody within it actually agrees that that’s the purpose of the company. So it is something that I think people like companies should reflect back on and check regularly when you’re doing your strategy, when you’re talking to everybody, like, are we actually people driven? Are we actually doing this? Is that our goal as a company? And I guess even by having those conversations with your employees as a sense is kind of inhabiting being a value driven company because you are making sure that your employee’s thoughts are first and foremost when it comes to the direction that you’re steering the company.

Obviously there is gonna be, elements of leaders will have deciding factors on things and there’s always hierarchy within a company, but that having individual input and knowing that we’re all in the same picture. And it’s something that we do in our company. Actually I touched on our strategy day this year where we said, are our values reflective of what we want?

What are our 20 year goals? What are our 10 year goals? Where do we see ourselves? And I wanted that to be driven from the employees rather than it’s saying, oh, this is what I think we should be doing. Because if I just tell everybody what I think we should be doing. It’s just my opinion that I’m, people are following and trying to push forwards, whereas if everybody communally says, actually no, we should be doing space, like we should be the full gas stations in space in 10 years. And it’s like, well, okay, if you wanna do this, how do we get there? It’s understanding the why and the reasoning and having everybody else agree to it. That pushes the ambition, the drive, and the innovation within the company

Lawrie: and values it always seems to me, uh. Behaviors that you want to see in an organization, and by way of illustration may be also illustrating the behaviors that you don’t want to see, and then holding people. Within reason to a certain set of behaviors, which you can put into all of your human resource processes through recruitment, induction, onboarding, training development, performance management,  promotions, and ultimately exiting people.

But very often if I’m meeting a client for the first time, I very innocently, ask them if they have values and they say, oh yes, we’ve got values. Yes, yes. Move on. And I’d say, hang on a minute, just tell me what they are. And there’s a deathly hush and if they’ve got five values, they might scrape into telling me what two of them are, that certainly indicates to me an organization which is not being straight as regards their view of the world of organizational values. How does that sound in your own experience.

Calypso: I’ve worked for a range of different companies and you do get the same similar idea of like greenwashing when it comes to values of just saying, oh, we are, you know, these fantastic things and these are all the things that we stand up for.

And then you actually get into the company and none of it is true.  And I think kind of falls onto what we were saying earlier with leadership and trust and what you’ve just pretty much just said. Having values are kind of pointless unless you can be accountable towards them. And accountability also then leads to trust.

Right. So that’s just kind of this, this full circle. I do agree that  yeah, values are essentially very important if you believe in them and they are accurate and reflected and you are accountable to them. Otherwise, it’s just words on paper.

Lucas: I agree completely. It’s one thing saying something, and a completely other thing, you know, actually doing it. So,  yeah, value shouldn’t be a tick box or something to make a company website look a bit more fancy,  or yeah, something to just throw around flippantly. So yeah, I do completely agree. And,  I hope when I go into the world of business or politics or wherever my future takes me, the values that I see, you know, sort of paraded by a company do match how it actually feels like it is to work there. So, yeah, hopefully.

Lawrie: So just moving on a little bit, how does social media impact your life at work? Or doesn’t it?

Lucas: I think with social media, me personally,  I used to use it quite a lot, but now I just try stay off it.

From a university perspective, I think if you are in the library, revising for a test tomorrow, which could be quite similar to a nine to five, I think maybe 30, 40 years ago if you really wanted to take a break from that revision, you’d go outside, get some fresh air, maybe smoke a cigarette.

I know our generation’s a lot more health conscious now, so that, might be, you know, less prone to happen. But I think now that break is Sort of, you know, going on social media or opening up your phone, and I think that pent up exhaustion and fatigue that you’ve had, that has been building up and building up all day from, you know, sitting and doing this work, I don’t think it’s getting properly expunged if you’re just going on your phone as opposed to, yeah, going outside and getting some fresh air.

So I think people are as a whole, a little bit more exhausted and I’d say, yeah, it’s because of social media

Eugene: For me, Social media has incredible value in, in giving me,  a lot of awareness about what’s happening in the world. Maybe too much awareness,  but it gives you a lot of understanding about what’s happening all over the world, what’s happening in politics and finance and everything that, that might affect you in housing.

it allows me to be connected to my friends, across the world,  in the same town as me.  But it can also be a massive distraction. I think part of that, it’s a massive distraction.  I would say part of that is sometimes self-discipline, but another part is the dangerous.  How you say addictiveness of social media and how it’s kind of designed to really get your attention and have your eyeballs on your phone for longer because that’s how it makes more money and that’s how a lot of these companies profit

Lawrie: And Calypso, are you,  deep into the world of social media or is it something that you try and pass by?

Calypso: Yeah, I am. I take breaks all the time from social media. I think it has its purpose, so I’m like an in-between of the two.

As a business it has its purpose. You know, you look at LinkedIn, I consider LinkedIn very much social media. It’s just a lot of people just business focused, right?  it’s very good way of getting news and information and understanding that, but it also is a very good way of spread, spreading misinformation and other things for the news,  and I completely agree, it’s being so connected is part of the reason why we’re all so exhausted all the time. So for me personally, I just limit it. I don’t, I’m not on most social media platforms and the ones that I do, I just take small doses in one day or I don’t touch it all in one day. But I have to, the same with the news on occasion.

You know, it’s like sometimes just being, it is really important to stay in. Like, just know what’s going on. But it’s so exhausting, and when you’re working insanely long hours and busy jobs and there’s, yeah, you need to take your setbacks. I’d rather go for a walk, to be honest, than on my phone and scroll through social media.

But I don’t think everybody has that take. I think it is, it’s designed, it, they bring psychologists in, just like gambling to work around social behaviors to make sure it is more addictive. ’cause how else are they gonna make money?

Lawrie: Well that’s, that’s great. And,  as we move towards our close, a simple question maybe with some complicated answers.

If you could redesign leadership, you know, what’s the first thing you’d change?

Lucas:  for me, I think just having a more transparent business and a more transparent business model and a chain of command where everyone on every single level knows what they’re doing and why it’s impactful and why it either helps the person who’s doing the job above them or who’s lower down on the output line.

I think that’s very important because I think to motivate people, they sort of need to know what they’re doing and why they’re doing it. And I think in a lot of big companies. A lot of these dealings and,  yeah, this train of command, a lot of the big decisions are taken behind quite closed doors and, you know, somewhat in secrecy.

And I just don’t think that’s how you’re gonna motivate people to work. I mean, young people sort of now, I think as a generation more than ever, want a purpose and if you, if you take away the transparency of why they’re doing things, they’re just not gonna have that purpose and as a result, won’t work as hard as they possibly can.

Lawrie: Yeah. And, and I think,  Lucas, that, um. Purpose is having a reason to go to work, which is more than just making a profit.

Lucas: Yeah, definitely. Yeah.

Lawrie: Again,  what, what are the things that you might look for? The one thing that you might look for if you were gonna change leadership for the future?

Calypso: Again, piggybacking off yours, Lucas.

It was, I think I’m very privileged in the sense that I am being able to curate a form of leadership within my own organization from the start and I’m trying to bring in all of those similar aspects because I am young, I am, this is my first position of this level and it’s also for a lot of the company, their first introduction to being in such a, like a small startup or being able to develop this, this organization into whatever it could be.  So I don’t necessarily have an answer. I could just say what my take is on it at the moment, and it does fall into leading by example and being transparent. And I am, you know,  I’ve just been at CFO Summit, which was really fascinating.

But I already, within that room of a lot of majority older men. It was really interesting to know that we all have the same issues, but also to be able to come at this approach of I am a people first leader. I don’t think that. My, it’s one of my skills and I don’t think that I can encourage my organization to grow and be motivated to do something when I’m like, I’m not an engineer.

I can’t tell ’em how to do their jobs, but I can definitely keep them motivated. I can definitely remind them why we’re we’re doing this and help them feel like they are included in the decision making and make sure that I’m transparent with our budgeting, with our finances, with everything, so they’re aware.

And I think that’s something that not a lot of companies do. Like they can see our cash flow. Like we’re just like, we’ll do a monthly update. We’ll talk about everything that’s going on and where we stand as a company and what our options are with growth. Like what do we think is the most important thing for us to prioritize so that we can like get to the next stage. And that those are big decisions. They’re really hard. And a lot of the time in leadership that’s lonely, you make all these decisions by yourself. And ultimately, I’m still gonna be the one that has to make the decision alongside my CD leadership team. But at least when I’m making those decisions, and sometimes it might be against the grain, they’ve had that input, they’ve been listened to, and I think that’s what keeps the company our culture and our motivation, and hopefully it means that I’m doing a good job at my, at my job.

Lawrie: Good. And Eugene, one thing you’d change in leadership for the future?

Eugene: Yeah, I think it stems from the purpose element, I think within companies that needs to be a stronger narrative,  a stronger story, a good reason why the company’s doing what they’re doing. Like why go on this endeavor? And that relates to the individual. ’cause everyone’s on their own journey. And for you to have a successful organization, people have to participate voluntarily. It has to align with what they want to get out of their lives.

And so communicating that, um. I think if, that problem can be solved, you, I think you get rid of lazy people because they’re not lazy anymore. They, they have a purpose and that purpose aligns with what this group of people also wants to do.

Lawrie: Well, that’s really good. Well, I think I mentioned to you before we started that, when we leave the podcast, we ask each contributor about their secret passion and their pet hate. Who wants to go first?

Lucas: I don’t mind starting. Pet hate. People who walk slow, slow walkers, especially around London, get on my nerves so much. And secret passion. I’m a DJ and I do really like making music.

Lawrie: Terrific.

Calypso: I’m not gonna lie, the walking slow in front of me thing is, it drives me mad.

Calypso: think that that’s just a Londoner. We’re, we’re all the same. We all think it’s like, oh, why, why are you walking so slowly? Or, you know? Maybe four people taking up the whole entire path and like walking in front of you and just

Lawrie: secret passion.

Calypso: It’s not cool anymore ’cause it’s really been said, but I actually also DJ.

Lucas: Oh really? No way.

Calypso: Oh, okay. Yeah, I do.  it’s, it’s secret passion. I love it. It’s a lot of fun.

Lucas: Yeah. What the chances.

Calypso: I know. I guess the other thing is I scuba dive as well, so DJing and diving.

Lucas: Yeah I dont do that.

Lawrie: Eugene, secret passion, pet hate.

Eugene: Yeah. I’ve probably got the weirdest one. I mean, I’ve, I, I guess I’m secretly passionate about,  I suppose theology and, and what it means to have faith and, believe in God and what, what God is I think it’s,  very misunderstood and I feel like many people don’t understand, including myself.  pet hate, I would say bad cooking.

Lawrie: Marvelous. Well look here, I think on behalf of leadership. Listening viewers and listeners,  you’ve done. The world a marvelous service today by giving your perspectives from your generation on a subject leadership, which I think is under an enormous amount of pressure.

And you guys are gonna make great leaders in the future,  from the point of view of leadership listening, viewers and listeners, please write to us. podcast@leadershiplistening.com. If you’ve got things to say about what you’ve heard, we’d love to hear from you. So to all three of you. Thank you very much indeed for everything you’ve done today.

It’s been marvelous. Thank you.