Lawrie: So today’s episode of leadership listening is about a very current subject at the top of lots of people’s minds for all sorts of different reasons and that subject is mental health in the workplace, or it has to be said in normal life as well. I guess it’s fair to say that there are lots of different angles to mental health, complex subject, fast moving, but Leadership Listening wants to bring, to the best possible extent, a practical understanding of the more complex subjects in life.

Today’s guest is Dr. Daksha Irani, whom I’ve known for over 10 years and Daksha, a good friend, is a clinical psychologist who runs a very busy practice in London, and I guess, the fact that it’s very busy points in the direction of mental health becoming a subject that people want to know more and more about and are involved with.

So, Daksha, how did your life story get you to what you are doing at the moment?

Daksha: Thank you for inviting me to speak. In answer to how my journey started, I was born and brought up in Kenya. I did all my education, sort of first education, the early education, and then came to the UK and did the usual psychology degree, master’s degree, and then a doctorate in clinical psychology.

I went on to work with the National Health Service for 10 years. In a mixture of adult mental health, neuropsychology. So looking at all the software of the brain and head injuries, strokes, and so on. And then went back to Kenya, lectured a bit, worked with NGOs and international development sort of agencies there in Nairobi, came back and now for the last eight, nine years. I have been in London enjoying the work here and have set up my private practice, as you say. So that’s a sort of a long-winded going from here and there, but that’s my journey.

Lawrie: Marvellous. That’s terrific. And we all hear about the word culture in the workplace and I think my contention would be that it is the leader that sets the style, the tone, the pace, the culture, and culture is quite often defined as the way we do things round here.

So what do you think is an ideal work culture for the leader to create from a mental health perspective?

Daksha: The word that comes to my mind, Lawrie, is safety. This idea that wherever you go in life, if you are feeling safe, then your body functions, your mind functions. You’ll be able to think creatively.

You’ll be able to problem solve. If there is no safety, the moment there is anxiety that is way beyond that we would say is actually helpful then, then that culture is not gonna work. That environment isn’t going to work. And it’s not just the work culture. If you think about our lives, if we walk around an environment where we are not feeling safe, we are not truly present, we are not gonna truly get everything from that atmosphere or whatever function we’ve gone to.

So safety is crucial, and then the rest flows from that.

Lawrie: Mm-hmm. So in a sense, numbers of the people that come into your practice, are in effect feeling unsafe for a whole range of different reasons.

Daksha: Absolutely. I mean, if you think about mental health and the kinds of challenges and, problems that are referred to me or people refer themselves for, a lot of the time it’s workplace stress.

Lawrie: Mm-hmm.

Daksha: So now we are looking at a lack of safety.

Lawrie: Mm-hmm.

Daksha: Anything that’s anxiety based, that’s gonna be a lack of safety. If it is bullying in the workplace, then there is a lack of safety. because somebody’s gonna be experiencing trauma

from whatever dynamics that are happening that make them feel unsafe. Now, if you put somebody in a situation like this for long enough, you can get to a place of burnout

Lawrie: mm-hmm.

Daksha: Where somebody just disengages. So you’re not really feeling anxious at that point. You just checked out, you’re depressed, you’re numb, you’re not even registering the emotions because they’re too powerful to experience.

Lawrie: Mm-hmm.

Daksha: That’s also not feeling safe. So it’s all sort of around a lack of safety really.

Lawrie: Okay. And I want to get into this difference between workplace stress and burnout. But just before we do that, I guess looking at the culture that is created by leaders in organizations and given what presents itself in your practic. How far do you think the reality of a positive, safe, constructive culture, how far from reality would you say things are in the general sense? Obviously.

Daksha: I guess I can speak about the people that present themselves. So I acknowledge that what I am seeing is a very select group.

it’s not the entirety of the group because I don’t go into the workplace looking at all the healthy spaces. I see the parts when it stops working.

Lawrie: Mm-hmm.

Daksha: but the comment I can make with what I do see is that, It, it truly feels very, very unsafe to the point of not just not being able to do their work, but feeling like their whole livelihood is under threat.

You know, think about it, we all have sort of mortgages to pay, or if you’re a leader, you’ll have people under you who have lots and lots of other responsibilities that mean that they’re not financially secure yet, you know, they still have to go into work to pay their bills and so on. So when you have so many things that are hanging on the job that you do, people will put up with a lot more than you’d be happy to.

Lawrie: Mm-hmm.

Daksha: Purely because you feel that you’re tied to it. It’s almost like you’re in prison, you know, you’re, there’s no choice. And so by the time they come to me, they really feel hopeless or disheartened that there’s no other way out.

Lawrie: If we look at then burnout, I mean part of my proposition in terms of practice is to say that a decent CEO workload is 2,500 hours a year. So that’s, 11 hours a day, which is a long day. Five days a week for 46 weeks of the year. And I guess burnout, has some signs that exhibit themselves in terms of, I dunno, people trying to do too much. What sort of signs present themselves as regards burnout in your practice?

Daksha: I think to answer that, Lawrie, it’s helpful to differentiate between stress and burnout. Okay. You know, stress can be good. People can thrive in problem solving. They know that something is at stake and they’re energized, and there’s a sense of adrenaline and excitement towards what they might be creating and if you’re a CEO and you can see your organization growing, putting in long hours can be actually energizing, it’s thrilling. You’re creating, and then when you have a financial reward for the efforts, it’s, it’s almost like a drug that’s kind of stress. I’m not saying is bad stress. Stress in a way can be seen as sometimes the good part of stress can be seen as over engagement.

The moment. One realizes that they’re starting to disengage. They’re no longer energized, or their emotions are blunted, they’re not feeling sharp, and they don’t have a in a sense, there’s a sense of depression coming on a, a lowness in the way that, or lack of energy in getting up. There’s just no excitement.

Then it’s a, it’s a time to review and say, well, where am I at? Or indeed the hopes and ideals that one might have set out with are no longer feeling connected to then you know that you’re heading towards burnout because you’re not truly present to what you created.

Lawrie: And how do I know, when I’m burnt out?

It’s all of those things beginning to sort of close in on me.

Daksha: Absolutely, and there’ll be, there will be a sense of helplessness that no matter what you do, nothing changes. You might feel hopeless as well. So these are all signs that now burnout is kicking in and actually your body is just tired. The nervous system is shattered and cannot put up with these long hours anymore.

And the body is communicating to you, Hey, can you just stop?

Lawrie: Mm-hmm.

Daksha: And it’s about listening to the body and saying, actually my body is telling me this is not sustainable.

Lawrie: So when people come to your practice, then it’s. I guess a matter of conversation with them about their life at work and what’s happening.

And I guess the words they use, the expressions they use, the story they tell will give you, the clue as to whether stress is leading to burnout in their case. And of course, we are interested in work related stress, but of course it cascades into life beyond work?

Daksha: Absolutely. when people come to me, we always look at all areas of their life.

So it’s not just work. Work forms a very important part, but then of course you’ve got your personal relationships, your family, your social network, and then there’s also your health and your wellbeing, you know, in terms of fitness levels, just physical health. All of that will impact. And then another part that people don’t really pay attention to that can very much affect your whole quality of life is the amount of leisure time you have.

Downtime you have that has got nothing to do with relationships or health and wellbeing or, indeed your work. Just making sure that when I speak to somebody, we’ll look at all areas of their life and see where they are at in all of them.

Lawrie: And in my own practice then we’ve seen all sorts of externalities, if you like, alcohol, support, you know, drugs, lack of sleep and so on. All, all of those presumably are tied into workload, stress, and, and burnout, which comes in due course.

Daksha: Absolutely. If you think about why people might be. Going towards substances, like alcohol, but then people could be, you know, I’ll get people who come to me because they might be taking illegal substances or drugs, you know, just to get away from the stress, the sensations that the body is producing that are so uncomfortable that they will numb it with substances. It could be food, it could be sex, it could be anything that is gonna be able to take away the pain or the discomfort of what’s coming up in the body. And so I call it numbing. You know, people are just doing it in order to avoid those sensations and the sensations themselves are what you speak about, you know, in terms of what leads to the body feeling.

When you haven’t had enough sleep or when you have palpitations or when you are feeling hot and flustered or when you’re worrying, there will be bodily sensations that come up that are uncomfortable or thoughts that come up that are uncomfortable or urges that come up that are uncomfortable. And I like to refer to things – the acronym that’s really helpful, Lawrie, is the word stuff. STUF, you know? When sensations come up, there’s so S for sensations, then T for thoughts, U for urges, and F for feelings. Anything. If you experience stuff that is painful, then the human nature is to reduce that pain and therefore, many times people will go to numbing that.

Through what you’ve said, you know, the unhelpful behaviors, what I call the avoidant behaviors.

Lawrie: Mm-hmm.

Daksha: So it’s about awareness of all of that, when people come to see me.

Lawrie: and isn’t there a sort of a difficulty here, in the sense that people who come to see you are exhibiting, overload, stress, burnout, but of course.

They may not be the leaders of the organization. So they’re at a sort of, a very difficult decision point because of what’s happening to them in the workplace. do you have any connection then back into their workplace, which can lead to the circumstances that have led to the person coming to see you actually being changed.

Daksha: That’s a difficult one, Lawrie, because, I work with a client. What I can do is, liaise with, the occupational health, which I often do. To look at what kind of, sick leave needs to be done, or indeed at what point does somebody start back to work with the reduced load and organizing a personalized sort of back to work program.

So those kind of things I can do. The main impact that my work will have with the client is for the client to work with, what is it within their control. That they can engage with such that they become more resilient, more psychologically flexible in order to work within that environment. Now, there are times when you think, hang on a minute, this, environment is simply unsafe.

Not just for them, but for everybody, you know, because it becomes almost like a toxic nature. In that case, the client may well decide, actually, you know what? I’m going to leave and I’m gonna go elsewhere. And this is normally the case when there is bullying in the workplace, or, an area that I am passionate about is narcissistic abuse.

Lawrie: Mm-hmm.

Daksha: Now, if you feel that there is some element of that going on, which cannot be managed within the workplace. Then clients will will leave.

Lawrie: But leaving itself is a stressful thing, I think as well. Because the truth is that people will have a range of relatively moderate number of jobs that they will go to in a life at work.

And so the whole stress of searching for a new job, being interviewed, negotiating your way in, and then the stresses and strains of. Joining a new organization, can all add to the difficulty that people who are seeing you present.

Daksha: Absolutely. And at the end of the day, you know, we are all our own experts.

We know which sort of leg, which, you know, if you’ve got your foot, one foot in, I’ve gotta look for elsewhere, or I’ve got to make do with this job. You will know which leg is feeling a lot more painful. And you just choose lesser of the two evils really in sense of which one do I need to make. Sometimes it’s just a case of for their own sanity, for their own absolute wellbeing, they just need to remove themselves from that environment.

Lawrie: Mm-hmm.

Daksha: But most of the time, I would say clients are able to go back. they might have got skills to negotiate, a better work environment. for example, if there’s neurodiversity going on, it’s how do you advocate for yourself so that the senior management know exactly how to cater for you to make adjustments for you so that you can deliver what is being asked, but in a way that is sensitive to your difference.

So those are the kinds of things that I can help, clients with.

Lawrie: And if, and if I move then, to discussing the very most senior people, a person at the top, the chief executive, there’s a notion which I have, that a person who’s in that level of seniority can be both victim and accomplice if they’re coming to see you. Victim of overload and work stress, but accomplice because they’re the person who could do something. About it.

Daksha: Absolutely. And, and remember at that senior level or the boardroom level, there’ll be many personalities, at play there as well. And the notion that, you know, it’s only the people who are a junior that, are susceptible to or say susceptible to narcissistic abuse or bullying, but we know that bullying can happen in any strata, you know, regardless of your age, gender, seniority. there, there is no separation. Human beings are human beings, and wherever you are, it can happen to anyone. so I guess the CEO at a boardroom level may also have to contend with their board members, you know, so bullying can happen at any place.

Lawrie: Yeah. And that brings us to approaches to coping. and coping is the best defense. The other one, if I’ve got it right, is. Is medication, but coping skills. So the skills that you carry through in life, are the most important skills given the sort of stresses and strains that people are under.

Daksha: You know, I would say that medication is a good adjunct if and when required for the short term. It’s, it’s just a short term, like a crutch in which once you don’t need it, you can let go of it. And, some advocate for it is people can decide whether that is something that they want to consider or not.

Coping is something that somebody will take with them forever, and I’d mentioned psychological flexibility. The reality is we can’t change the behaviors of others. We can’t change how other people are going to think, say, and do things. But what we can do is take charge of the way we are going to do things or relate to the stuff that comes up in our stuff, you know, in the way we think, or in the way we feel.

We can learn strategies to deal and make room for that discomfort such that. There is no room necessarily for avoidance behavior, and that the clients are able to focus and step towards those challenges of those painful sensations that come up, the thoughts that come up, the urges and the feelings that come up to deal with them.

And a lot of the time it’s about dealing with their own fears, or sense of negativity that they might be carrying, insecurities they might be carrying. For example, if somebody is not assertive enough to be able to, have their voice heard. Then what skills do they need to make sure that they are heard, that they’re seen, or they’re able to say that these are my boundaries, and then actually maintain those boundaries.

So those are the kinds of things that I can work with clients such that whatever they’re facing in the workplace is. Something that’s on the outside and not within them. It’s almost armoring them. Really.

Lawrie: Mm-hmm. And what, what’s the sort of typical, time set that people have to spend with you and in the work that you do In order to turn the corner and become stronger, more resilient?

Daksha: Laurie, I have to say it, it depends on the severity of the challenge that that one brings.

Lawrie: Mm-hmm.

Daksha: But I can say that every single client, that comes to see me will leave with tools and strategies within three, four sessions because it’s about recognizing the human behavior, the human experience.

And once somebody understands that and buys into. What we are discussing and what we are working together with, they will be able to run with it. And I always ask my clients to be highly critical of everything that we say and do in our work together. Because once they get it, they realize that it’s not about what the world outside is doing to them.

It’s about what you can do within yourself and looking within. To get the strength you need and once you are living from within, actually it doesn’t really matter so much on largely about what’s happening on the outside, so. In a short sense, you know, to summarize, I would say between six to 12 sessions is typically what people come and see me for.

But there are times when there’s a lot of trauma, say, not just with the workplace, but what they might have experienced from their childhood and so on, when we might have, more sessions.

Lawrie: And do they normally come of their own volition? Do they come through the workplace health people or do they come as a result of their boss perhaps suggesting it to them.

Daksha: A, a lot of the time it comes because, it’s occupational health, health that’s coming to be, but they, the occupational health themselves learn of this because the clients themselves have gone to them saying, look, I need help. It’s far more effective when somebody’s coming to work with me saying, I need help, and these are my best hopes from our work together.

What can we do to get there? Now, if there’s a boss, you know, if there’s their leaders listening here. Who say, right, this person’s a problem, I’m gonna send them to a therapist to fix them so that they can come back all fixed. That’s not necessarily gonna work because the person needs to want to do it.

They need to be able to see the benefit for themselves, not for their bosses or for others. And once they can see that they want it. Then it’ll work. So the referral skill come either from occupational health, or insurance companies where, which a lot of the businesses and corporations will give private healthcare to their workers and all the people who are employed, by the firms, and it’s them who will then seek, re self-referrals in a sense.

And then they’re sent, over to our practice.

Lawrie: And if I pull things together and say that leadership, and classically a chief executive is knowing what to do and how to do it, and I think that’s a very big question in its own right. And then secondly, having the right sort of behavioral set. To sit with the knowing what to do and how to do it.

And, and alongside that, we’ve got this thing called character, which has a sort of moral foundation to it so that people will trust and follow you. that it seems to me. Is a very complex setup for the chief executive to have to face and put together in daily life hour after hour after hour leading, one hopes, to organizational success.

So how does character actually, enter into this whole scene of organizational leadership?

Daksha: You know, Lawrie, when you say character, the thing that comes to my mind is if I have an image of a CEO or a very senior leader. When you say character, the thing that comes to my mind is safety. If you think of any leader, think about parents who are leading the family unit.

Everybody around feels safe. They will be able to lead, they will be listened to. You know, they, so the character, no matter how it shows up, if it engenders a sense of security around them, around the people. There’s a security knowing, well, actually this person has a very sound mind. I trust them, and I trust that they will look after me.

I would trust that whatever risks they’re taking are actually well thought through. They will be, they’ll be, they’ll lead. And character is also not just about how you come across at work. Of course people will be looking at you in social events and wherever you, it’s, there’s a responsibility that comes with, leadership where you have to show up in a way that is professional, I guess.

Lawrie: And I think in a sense it’s got that sort of moral foundation. You know, there’s, there’s these difficult, concepts to, get into the leadership act, integrity, courage, humility, consistency, respect, fairness, all of those things. And I think is it fair then to say that. On occasions, people look at their positional authority, I’m the chief executive, as opposed to those more moral authority things, which put together, add up to positive, constructive character.

Daksha: Absolutely. I mean, you’d hope that people in seniority have all of those wonderful qualities that you just spoke of and none of the arrogance that comes from I am the CEO, you do what I do. And, one of the things I have found working certainly with startup CEOs where they’re just starting out, there’s so much excitement, but they’re also very much in charge and and very responsible for how the organization grows. And there is such a sense of agency there that as the organization grows, they’re not able to let go of it. And that’s where the challenge comes in of how do you now let go of something that you might have created such that other people can also come in.

And I’ve seen a lot of dynamics occur there where people’s mental health has been affected. Are, we’re talking about, you know, the people who’ve actually started the businesses as well, the leaders here in this respect.

Lawrie: Interesting. And does that then take us in the direction of narcissism in the leader?

And we certainly heard quite a lot of that word in the last year or two. You know, on national and international news. So narcissism in the leader and in particular malignant narcissism.

Daksha: Absolutely. You know, when we talk about narcissism in the workplace, whoever it may be, it could be a work colleague, it could be a leader, it could be no matter where it stands.

But in this respect, as we are speaking, it’s certainly from the leaders who might have created something, when you observe malignant narcissism. At the center of it is power and control. You know, when somebody has so much power and so much control over everybody, or agency with where they are at, it can become addictive.

And also letting go can create a lot of fear within the person who’s got narcissistic traits. So it’s about how do you manage this? And you mentioned malignant narcissism, but I guess there are other ways narcissism can also manifest malignant narcissism, will manifest when somebody is very happy.

Being an extrovert. Could be an alpha person, in a room, and yes, you’ve got that, but then you could have an introvert. Who is what we call the covert narcissist, who’s just as dangerous and in fact, so insidious that you don’t know why and how, the person or people around them are so affected. Then the mental health is so affected, and yet that person, presents as being very agreeable, very nice to the outside world.

So narcissism in all its respects, I would say is extremely dangerous. And certainly that’s my area of expertise, and that’s the area that I’ve chosen to go into because I’m passionate about it.

Lawrie: So is this the, I don’t know, the wolf in sheep’s clothing?

Daksha: Absolutely.

Lawrie: Interesting.

Daksha: You don’t see it, but it’s very much there.

Lawrie: So what can we do as regards the narcissist if the boss is a narcissist, or what can we do if the boss is a narcissist, and can they change from being a narcissist?

Daksha: the simple answer to this, I would say is no. People with narcissistic traits can change their behavior, but only if and when it’s suits them so they’re not changing their behavior in order to become more pro-social.

So they can think about other people’s, wellbeing and empathizing with them and looking at, seeing how can they be kinder, nicer, more empathetic, compassionate. No, we are not thinking of changing people to that level. but they can change their behavior at at the drop of a hat if they know that they’ve got something to gain from it.

So I would always say that. I would much rather, and I think it’s far more successful working with people who have been abused by somebody with narcissistic traits than working with the narcissist themselves. Because when you are working with somebody who’s at the, at the sort of the victim end or the, and the receiving end of the narcissistic behavior.

Hmm. There we work beautifully and certainly the work that I do is all about getting insight and awareness for the clients who are coming to me, be they leaders or wherever they are  in the workplace, in looking to see what are the fears that they carry, are they. Doing things out of a sense of obligation.

Are they doing, things out of a sense of guilt? And I say fear, obligation, and guilt because when you put those together, it sort of has an acronym of fog. And what people with narcissistic traits are really good at doing is creating a fog around you so you can’t see clearly. You’ll be ending up doing things and you’re exhausted or you’re tired.

You can’t see the wood for the trees and you don’t why you’re feeling like this. Your body is telling you something is wrong, but your mind when you try to think of it, you say, well, I can’t this, this just make sense. My boss is just so wonderful and nice and so popular and so liked and so successful.

Surely I’m the problem. So once I work with the fog around the clients. Then I can see what kind of crap they might be carrying, such that the person with the narcissistic traits is able to infiltrate and get what they need from that person at the expense of that person, not so this enriching both of them.

Lawrie: Mm-hmm.

Daksha: and when I say crap, Lawrie, that’s yet another acronym. Mm-hmm. Which is CRAP. Getting clients to see what are their fears of criticism. So C for criticism, R for rejection, A for abandonment, and P for punishment. Now people could be criticized in many ways, and sometimes, you know, you’ll do things and over and beyond just not to be criticized, and somebody with narcissistic traits can actually use that to their advantage.

So you want to work towards not really carrying that wound or feeling rejected or abandoned, you know, in terms of, yeah, you lose a job, you know, people will throw things around or even just being rejected from a meeting. Punishment could be in the form of aggression or even silent treatment or, excluding.

So there are many ways in which you can punish somebody. Now, when a client comes and we work with their crap and their fog

Lawrie: mm-hmm.

Daksha: They can be far more resilient in such that they can show up at work in a way that they value themselves. Regardless of what the person with the narcissistic traits wants, then what I have found time and time again is that the person with the narcissistic traits has to adapt to that person.

And most of the time, it’s about just leaving them alone and going to the next target, somebody else who’s crap and fog that they can, mine in a way

Lawrie: that’s really interesting and, and I love the crap and the fog. It’s marvelous. Where does the, the problem of narcissism come from?

Is it nature or nurture? Are you born with it or does it kind of grow? is it in effect, a bad habit, a behavioral habit? What, what would we say about that?

Daksha: I think the answer to that is it’s a bit complex, but I would say it’s a bit of both. I’ve had clients who will come to me who possess no narcissistic traits whatsoever, and yet their siblings have very strong narcissistic traits.

Now they’ve had the same kind of upbringing. You know, same kind of nurturing in a sense, but their in inner nature is different. So there is a case for personality, that someone’s personality, if you think about three children in the same, family, their personalities are so different.

So there is an element of nature, but there’s also the sense of nurture in the sense that if you have had a very invalidating childhood or, a lot of trauma or challenges in your childhood, the manner in which you adapt. It can mean that you end up developing narcissistic traits. Because think about it, if you are a child and you don’t have a sense of control in your life by exhibiting and adapting to narcissistic behaviors, you might just be able to get power and control around the people that surround you.

So, and it feeds, it’s positively reinforcing, and then you grow up with very strong narcissistic traits. So I like to think of it as a learned adaptation to whatever life threw at you, whether it was very severe or not. We don’t judge, but it’s just an adaptation that they have actually then, adapted in this way.

And it’s an active choice in a way because when you see people with narcissistic traits, they can be extremely charming one second. Or very agreeable, very pro-social. And yet the moment the door closes and they’re faced with the person that they’re targeting, they can be nasty, they can be vicious. And then it’s like a Jekyll and Hyde very quickly.

It’s, it’s actually not something that is uncontrolled. They can control it. And they’re choosing to behave in that way.

Lawrie: So it’s a, it’s a weapon really for the narcissist.

Daksha: It is. I have worked with people who have narcissistic traits because I will also see people who have, very strong narcissistic traits in my practice, and they will normally refer themselves because they realize that people around them are leaving them and they don’t know why.

So they want to try and make sure that they can sustain their power and control over the people around them. So it’s not necessarily coming to say, you know, can you please make me more empathetic? No, they’re saying, can you show me how I can behave in a way where people are not going to leave me?

Lawrie: We are hearing all these new words in the workplace these days.

And another new one, new-ish is gaslighting. Does that come through your practice as well?

Daksha: Oh, absolutely, and I think it is a thing.

Lawrie: Shall we just define it first of all? What, what do, what do you see when you are talking to somebody? Who comes to you with gaslighting as the thing that they’re suffering from.

Daksha: So people aren’t going to say that they’re suffering from gaslighting. It’s about, it’s part of a phenomenon that is happening, which is leading them to question their reality. And when you question your reality, you might be feeling more unsure of yourself. Your confidence is short. You can’t see the wood for the trees.

You’re thinking, I’m feeling so rotten, and I’m not sure why. So they present themselves in those emotional ways and sort of mental health ways. But when we look at it further. You can see that gaslighting is one of the thing that’s leading them to feel like that. gaslighting in a sense. If you think about, I think it was a 1930s movie where the personality, the psychology of the abuser was such that, he went around turning down the gaslights, because in those days they didn’t have the electricity lights. So they had the gaslight that, you know, gave them light, turning them down a notch, and then telling his, wife, well, I never turned them down because the wife is asking her, you know, so why did I not just turn them up?

Why they so dim. So, well, no, you just turned them up. I, I don’t know why. You know, sort of, she started to question her own sanity, her own reality. And gaslighting is when somebody will say something didn’t happen, when, you know it happened. And there is, they cause plausible deniability and like, well, are you sure that happened?

Are you really, I don’t remember it that way. Hmm. I wonder why you would think that. and then you start questioning. Did that really happen? Surely they didn’t mean it that way. Maybe their tone was not as aggressive as I experienced it, and then you start thinking that you’re the problem because they say it with such certainty that surely the person who is very certain of a reality is going to be more credible and believable and correct, than the person who’s doubting themselves.

Lawrie: So it seems to me it’s almost like a sort of confidence trick.

Daksha: Absolutely. It all goes back to power and control trick.

Lawrie: Yep.

Daksha: So if they can have power and control over you, they can do whatever the heck they want.

Lawrie: And it leads, I guess, to stress, depression, anxiety, trauma, all of those things, which are within the purview of the leader, within the purview of the CEO.

Daksha: Absolutely. And it, it can also lead to all the symptoms of traumatic stress, you know, nightmares, feeling like you’re reliving it, palpitations, I mean, it can lead to extreme debilitating mental health.

Lawrie: Terrific. If every leader in the world, Daksha, could hear one piece of advice from you, what kind of message would you tell them?

Daksha: I would say before you give any instruction. Think about your intention behind that instruction. If the intention is coming from a place of instilling fear, a sense of obligation or guilt in the other person such that they can do what you want done, then think twice.

Because that’s no way to motivate people. But if your intention is to generate activity, enthusiasm, excitement, a shared vision, you know, even if it’s difficult for the people to hear. It’s okay. They will be able to take it because they, the culture will come through that, your intentions, this is what you’re doing it for and this is why you’re doing it.

So every leader, I would say, think about your intentions behind why you are giving the instruction that you’re giving, and if it’s fear, obligation, or guilt led. Think twice because it will backfire some way or the other. It’ll come and bite you.

Lawrie: There’s a wonderful saying, which I love for leaders. I must find out where my people are going so that I can lead them.

Daksha: Absolutely.

Lawrie:  Daksha. A really interesting conversation, but as we come towards our close, a couple of things. Your pet hate, first of all.

Daksha: I think I’ve already said it. It’s sort of not any surprise now is that anytime I see fog or crap anywhere, I run away so fast, I have no time for it anymore. There was a time when I didn’t know about, fog and crap and narcissistic abuse, and I did suffer from narcissistic abuse as a result.

But once you are equipped with the knowledge it’s fine. So now the moment I think that somebody’s throwing fog or crap at me, I just walk away.

Lawrie: And finally, your secret passion.

Daksha: I’ve been harping on a about it now already, so it’s not secret anymore. And it is narcissistic abuse recovery. There is so much out there, Lawrie, in terms of what narcissism is, but when you talk about narcissistic abuse recovery, the recovery part I think is lacking in terms of how does one overcome their fog and crap. And this is exactly why I wrote my book, which is out in April next year in terms of using an evidence-based psychotherapeutic approach, called ACT Acceptance and commitment therapy. Do not just cope with narcissistic abuse, but to not only survive it, but actually also thrive after it.

and that journey and how one can actually get there. so that’s my, passion.

Lawrie: Marvelous. And if viewers or listeners want to comment on what we’ve been talking about today, we’d love to hear from you and are. Email address is podcast@leadershiplistening.com. So tell us what you think about this very important subject, Daksha.

Thank you very much indeed for your time today. I’m sure people are gonna learn an awful lot and think about their own place in work and choose a place that has. Really good leadership. Thank you.